Our podcast: The challenges of covering Russia and Syria from exile

In this episode of Fellowship Takeaways we hear from two journalists whose work and lives has been shaped by displacement. They discuss the challenges of building trust, maintaining sources' anonymity, the emotional toll of their work and what newsrooms can do better to support journalists in exile.

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Speakers

Asmaa al-Omar is a Syrian journalist who has reported on human rights violations, migration, and conflict in the Middle East for publications such as The New York Times, The Financial Times, and The Guardian. Her investigative work focuses on refugee issues and regional corruption.

Maria (Masha) Kiseleva is a journalist and video producer from Russia, who relocated to Riga, Latvia, after the invasion of Ukraine to escape military censorship laws. Before the invasion, Maria was working for the BBC’s Russian Service in Moscow. She currently works for Current Time TV station, part of RFE/RL.

Our host Caithlin Mercer is the Associate Director of the Journalist Fellowship Programme at the Reuters Institute. Previously she was Managing Editor at Yahoo UK where spearheaded their move into audio.

Transcript

Leaving home | Becoming a journalist | Trust and engagement | Self care | How newsrooms can support exiled journalists | Respect for journalists in exile

Leaving home ↑

Caithlin: Masha, tell us where you were on the 24 February, 2022 How did you hear news of the invasion?

Maria: I was working as a producer and correspondent for BBC Russian service in Moscow, and as most Russians, I heard the news about the full scale invasion at 5am I got the news from the radio station Echo of Moscow, which doesn't exist anymore, as it was, in fact, closed down in March 2022. The news on the radio said that Russia is attacking the cities of Kyiv and Kharkiv. Those cities hadn't been in the conflict zone before that. And having heard this news, I realised that the war has started and that it's something serious.

Caithlin: How many days after hearing that, did you decide you needed to leave?

Maria: About a week after that, it wasn't an easy decision. The situation in general was pretty tense. But on top of everything, there were rumours about the possible raids and arrests at the offices of independent media, and these rumors were coming from reliable sources that my colleagues had worked with before, so these raids never happened. But in this atmosphere, some journalists, including myself decided to leave Russia on their own terms, thinking that we could be back in a few weeks or months. It happened so that my annual leave was around the same time and my trip got canceled, so I had a choice of either staying in Moscow or going somewhere and waiting until things calmed down a bit. So the BBC Russian website was blocked in Russia on March 3, 2022 and on the same day, I left Moscow for Baku, which is the capital of Azerbaijan. And a week later, my newsroom was moved to Riga, Latvia, and I joined my colleagues shortly after that.

Caithlin: Is there anything you wish you had packed that you didn't?

Maria: I actually left Russia with a backpack. A big hiking backpack that I had, and I took quite a lot of stuff with me. I left one of my nice dresses because I didn't think I would use them, and I left a wonderful book, which is called Panelki, about the block houses in the former Soviet Union and the countries of the so called Eastern Bloc. And funnily enough, only this year, only a couple of months ago, my friend found it and gave it to me as a present. So now I have this book again in a slightly different edition. But now I feel better because the original book is still in Moscow, and I miss it.

Caithlin: Asmaa, you were only, what, 15 when the Syrian uprising began in 2011. How long before your family decided to leave?

Asmaa: I had turned 15, and looking back now, I thought I was an adult back then, but really I wasn't. I think it took us about a year and a half into the uprising until we've left, and the reason for that was because in the first year, in 2011 after the uprising started, like Damascus, sort of remained relatively quiet compared to other cities that rebelled and the regime had started carrying out these big military campaign against those cities, and it was only when the rebels started approaching Damascus and the outskirts of Damascus, when the Assad regime began bombing, and this is when my mom freaked out, and she was like ‘I can't stay here. I can't stay in this country. We need to leave.’ And we thought around that time that the fall of the regime was imminent, and, it was just a matter of time, because it seemed very serious from how the rebels were moving back then. So we only packed winter clothes, and it was later that we managed to retrieve some of our stuff and bring it to Turkey. But my mom was just like, ‘Let's leave. Let's pack the necessary stuff,’ and  we left through Beirut to Turkey, and we thought it was just a matter of a few months, and then we stayed there for 13 years.

Caithlin: Wow. And your mom had from previous conversations with you, your mom had a pretty good reason for being cautious.

Asmaa: Absolutely. My mom is from Hama, and Hama city had witnessed a massacre, also carried out by Hafez Al Assad's, who was Bashar Al Assad’s father, at the time, in the 80s. And my mom had this massive trauma that she carried. And I think a lot of Syrians have carried from those areas, from Hama and like outskirts of Aleppo, where they also witnessed some of that massacre. And it was a pretty much a lesson that was imposed by the Assads, that if you were to rebel, we are going to show you things that you've never thought were imaginable. So she was freaking out when she also felt that I was participating in those protests, and she really wanted to protect me like the good mother that she is. And my brother also was reaching the age where he would be conscripted to the military. And so my mom was like, ‘No way we're staying here.’ My dad was a bit more relaxed, I think, because he didn't carry that trauma around with him. But my mom was like, ‘No way. We have to we have to go.’

Becoming a journalist ↑

Caithlin: Do you remember when it was that you decided you wanted to be a journalist and what your first byline was?

Asmaa: I think it was before I left Syria. I'd like to think that. I always sort of knew that I wanted to write. And it was one of those cases that I feel like a lot of journalists would have had, like, a similar experience with where, like, somebody would tell you, ‘Oh, you're really good at writing. Why don't you become a writer,’ and, and this is what happened with me. My teachers were like, ‘You should write,’ and I had a knack for languages. And so when the uprising started in Syria, I was really drawn to wanting to report, because at the time the Assad regime has plunged Syria into a total media blackout and then this is when it became like, just carrying a camera and just recording the sounds, or recording a video of what was going on. It became an act of resistance in itself, just to witness or show the world what was going on. And I think that just being in contact with that, or having that urge to be like, I need to report, I need to document those things, this is when I felt like I had an understanding of what journalism is before I've actually practiced it as a profession.

I started doing journalism professionally in 2016 and this is around the time when we had lots of refugee waves, like going from Turkey into Europe. And around that time Aleppo fell under the Russians and the Syrian regime's hands. Unfortunately, I didn't get bylines for these stories because, because I was still a reporter but these were  the first stories that I worked with, and they were pretty intense. And so that taught me also a lot about how to report on really stressful stories, like from the get go. I think that shaped a lot my journalism later.

Caithlin: I'm gonna ask Masha a similar question, but a slight tweak. Do you remember the first piece that you filed from exile?

Maria: Well, in the first week after leaving Moscow, despite the fact that I was technically on vacation, I only rested for a few days, so I worked most days, but it was difficult to do the work because I had problems with communication, with cell phones, and I had problems accessing my money because of the sanctions. So I think technically, the first thing that I did was participate in a podcast about the blocking of Visa and Mastercards in Russia, and I was suffering from this block at the same time. And then I started doing another podcast about people who were leaving Russia at that moment. Those were ordinary people with some unusual roots or circumstances, and also some more famous people and activists. And I remember that I had one interview an hour after I landed in Riga, so I rushed from the airport to sit down in a hotel and do this interview. It was very interesting but bittersweet work, because it made me understand what brilliant people my country were losing at that moment. And I don't mean myself.

Trust and engagement ↑

Caithlin: I mean you. So you've both been at the Institute for a while now, reading and thinking about journalism in exile. Would you be willing to reflect on some of your early findings about what makes journalism in exile so difficult? First for you, Asmaa and then Masha?

Asmaa: Yeah, the hardest part was mastering the craft of building trust. You kind of learned quite early on, that without people, you rarely ever have a story, and in exile, it becomes much, much harder to establish that trust, because it's much easier to go out and meet someone for coffee and they see you in person, and you get to win their trust. But when you're just in exile, and you're trying to phone people who are back in your country and who have a lot of other restrictions around their life, that makes it much harder for them to engage with you, and they have good reasons not to trust you, this is what makes it really hard.

And so for me, it's been, like, how do you make someone believe in your intentions? And how do you go into interviewing people and presenting yourself as your most authentic self, and you're being honest about the expectations, the process of journalism, you have to also show a lot of empathy. And I think this is something that I've had to practice, is to not just think empathetically, but show it to them and reflect it to them. And it takes time, and it takes a lot of patience, and it takes a lot of work and a lot of checking in, and I've had a lot of amazing connections with people in Syria but it takes a lot of work, and you have to really understand their fears where they're coming from.

And, of course, that requires you also to constantly check in with what's going on in Syria, and that's also hard work. And you're like, how is the regime? What's the new tactic that they're using to silence people? And it's part of also the job to not just gather information from people, but also guide them through the process, like, sometimes I have to make the decision to keep them anonymous and protect their identity. Sometimes they wouldn't understand exactly how that would put them in danger. But then you have to step in and really protect them. And always, for me, it was like, your sources are first. Like, their protection is first. It's the most important thing. Also maybe navigating accusations, where people are thinking you're a spy, or questioning your motives, like, ‘Why are you calling me? Who are you? Where did you get my number?’ And you have to understand that that comes from real fear. And in Syria, we had this idea that the walls have ears, and it's, it's not just a saying, it's a reality that's lived in Syria.

I think I would like to end this by saying that another thing that I've had to learn was to constantly educate myself and make myself and train myself to be unbiased as possible, like especially when you're covering different groups or minorities in Syria. Because the Syrian regime, the former Syrian regime, has basically lived by the saying divide and rule. And it's, you can see that it's like, planted deep into the society where this, you know, [has] created hatred between groups. And as a journalist, like, you have to not give into that like. And it really took a lot of work and humility for me to be like, you have to speak to everyone, and you have to respect everyone. And that opened  much more doors for me to explore other parts of Syria and groups of Syria that otherwise I wouldn't have spoken to.

Caithlin: For our listeners at home, Masha has had her head in her hands, shaking her head in recognition at what Asmaa has been saying. Does that sound very familiar to you, Masha?

Maria: Yeah, frighteningly familiar, and I was, I'm really glad that I'm on this conversation with Asmaa. It's fascinating, but also pretty scary how similar our experiences are and how similar the problems of the journalists in exile are. So if I talk about the discoveries that I made in the course of my research, they concern the extent to which Russian media in exile give priority to audiences within the country that they're covering. So I've spoken to representatives of seven media outlets, and they report they have managed to maintain a share of the audience inside Russia ranging between 45 and 85%. It's hard to measure sometimes, but it's still around or higher than 50%.

Another finding that I will take with me is how exactly the exiled media assess the audience and get feedback from it. Because the problem is that conventional methods of audience measurement, like using analytical tools like Chartbeat or using social media audience engagement analytics are not completely suitable for media in exile, and specifically for Russian media in exile, so many of them have to use complex methods that involve collecting and analysing information that comes from different channels. And I think that many media have to sort of invent this for themselves, and yet it is impossible to understand your audience as accurately as it was before the exile. So the feedback is important, but the traffic, like what materials are read and watched more has lost its significance in shaping the editorial policy, as far as I understand.

Caithlin: Masha, I know you you've also met with the Thomson Reuters Foundation’s exiled journalism programme leaders, can you tell us a little bit about what you learned there?

Maria: In my work, I don't address many of the practical challenges that media in exile are facing. In particular, I haven't delved into the legal issues that they encounter in their host countries or the challenges of monetisation. And if you're interested in those topics, I would highly recommend checking out the reports from organisations that support media in exile, such as JX Fund and Thomson Reuters Foundation. So Thomson Reuters Foundation is working with journalists who have had to leave their home countries, and they're helping them to keep doing their job in a new place, basically. So the fund is offering training, mentorship, legal help to make sure these journalists can operate safely and follow the local laws and just,you know, help them produce great content. This is part of the big effort to support independent media from Central and Eastern Europe and especially journalists from Russia and Belarus who are facing prosecution back home.

Self care ↑

Caithlin: A question for both of you, is there something that made your life in exile easier that you wish you had known sooner?

Maria: I wish I knew sooner how important it is to look after yourself in those kind of situations if you are journalist in exile. Because going in exile feels intense, and it often comes with breaking news naturally, because if your media had to relocate, it means that something is happening in your home country, and you want to be covering it as much as possible. And it means working longer hours and working night shifts and just being more focused in your work while you are in a new environment and in a very uncertain situation and life situation in general. So myself and many of my colleagues experienced deterioration of their physical and mental health, and it doesn't help anyone. It doesn't make the situation in your country better if you are now depressed or can't sleep or turn to alcohol or things like that. So it's really important to, you know, sleep and eat and try to take walks and not going to pubs with your colleagues. That's not the way to do it. I know I sound like Captain Obvious, but

Caithlin: No,I think I wish more people would say Captain Obvious statements like, ‘Please sleep, please eat, please take a walk.’ I think this is crucial.

Maria: Yeah, I'm speaking from a place of having been through that, and I know how hard it is to make yourself rest more. But this is really important, because in the long run, people can burn out. They leave journalism. You know, families get broken up, and it's like I said, it doesn't help anyone. It's really important to prepare yourself for a marathon, because things may take much longer to calm down than you would originally anticipate.

Caithlin: Where did you find pockets of enlivenment?

Maria: Well, first of all, I should say, I understand that I'm in a privileged position. I relocated with my company. There are loads of independent journalists who were in much worse situations, money and document wise, and I'm not even mentioning my colleagues from Ukraine who had to deal with actual bombing and actual threats to their lives. So I understand that I was in a better position, but still it was hard for me in some moments But I remember in April of 2022 my friends from BBC Russian once invited me to join them on a weekend, on a walk in one of the Latvian towns, seaside towns, which is called Sernikowa, and I remember this trip so vividly to this day, because, well, it might sound like too much, but I think in some ways, they saved my life by inviting me to that trip, because after days of interrupted sleeping and work and night shifts, I went to this sunny seaside town. I saw the sea, the Gulf of Riga, and I realized that life is going on. It never stops, and the work, the pictures of the war that we saw every day is not everything that is there, that something else is there for me. I had this friends group for a while, and I'm really grateful for them.

I think this is probably one of the lessons: sleep, eat, both of walks, but also find people. who you can be friends with some new connections, and they do form easily in exile, but it's very important to maintain them and support each other. Another important thing on top of just eating and sleeping. Two other things. One, I would say, trying to do some kind of sports is very important, and it will make your work better, because it will just give you some energy. But the last thing I want to say is that if you, like me, feel that your mental health is deteriorating, it's very important to seek help. And I can say that I started therapy as a journalist in exile, and it was a very good idea indeed.

Caithlin: Super advice. Thank you, Masha and Asmaa. How about you? What's something you wish you had known sooner?

Asmaa: I just want to say that I think we all should go on a trip.

Caithlin: I want to, I actually do want to go and see the sea in Riga.

Maria: You’re both very much invited.

Asmaa: Yeah, I think maybe just not being insanely hard on myself, like understanding that not everything is within my control. And I think, like this is something that you have to understand when you're working with news, because it's very unpredictable, and just constantly trying to feel you're in control is not going to get you really far, and as Masha said, it might really impact your mental health. And I I do want to say that I agree with everything that Masha said, and I want to add that I think knowing that you're not alone is a very important thing, because, when you're a journalist in exile and you're working with people who are not and those people who are around you, like, there are many invisible barriers that other people don't see. Some of them are that sometimes stories won’t see the light, and like people will stop contacting you, even if you have a really good connection with them on the ground, and you will lose sources like stories. People might withhold information out of fear.

And also, on top of that, there's a lot of complex power dynamics within journalism that also nobody teaches you. And so I just wish I had understood earlier that,  not to take the mistrust, the silences, the setbacks personal. They're just part of the terrain, and it really helped me immensely when I realized that I wasn't the only one going through this. Like, having a mentor matters. Talking about these things with other friends, like this is something that me and Masha have, like, went through in this fellowship where, a lot of time we would be talking about something in the seminars, and we would look at each other like we would immediately understand what's going on, and that, in itself, is so healing.

How newsrooms can support exiled journalists ↑

Caithlin: And what's um, what's something that you wish newsroom leaders did more or less of to make working in exile easier.

Asmaa: I wish newsrooms offered more emotional and psychological support and especially for journalists who are reporting on their own countries, from afar, and because it's very easy to feel, as I said before, like it's very easy to feel isolated in a newsroom when nobody can relate to your daily frustrations and challenges and fears that you carry that are connected to your work and you're under pressures. Like you're under pressure from either news or editors and also you're risking being scrutinised by your home government or even communities from there. And so you're dealing with a lot of different forces at the same time.

And I just think that maybe just acknowledging what you're going through, and I think that's in itself, is a good step, like just feeling like you're being seen in the newsroom and that you're not alone, and if they know other you know exiled journalists, maybe they put you in touch with them, and then maybe you can in some newspapers, there are communities that form within that newspaper to support each other. And I feel like, why not have the exiled journalist also build something like that and be encouraged by the paper itself? And I think that just like sharing space with others who get it like, who've had to navigate the same challenges makes all the difference.

Caithlin: How about you, Masha?

Maria: What I would like to see more in those situations is an ability to regroup faster. It is hard to do within bigger corporations, but sometimes, if I put it directly, some of the newsrooms in the first moments after relocating and going in exile are like ruined anthills. People are now in a new environment. Many of them get some new responsibilities or change their workflow dramatically, and this adds to the uncertainty that they are already experiencing. And I understand that this is very hard, because we never know how long we will have to stay because in the beginning of the full scale invasion to Ukraine, many of us thought that it's first for a couple of weeks, for a couple of months, for a year, and it's now been three years, and when you don't see the time for which you have to be planning, it's really hard to come up with a plan, but ironically, this is exactly what you need to do.

Because the hardest thing for me personally, but I think for any newsroom in this situation in general, is to fully understand the idea that it won't be like it used to be. Even if you come back to the country that you left, it won't be the same country. It won't be the same situation. You won't have the same workflow, because you won't have the same team, because people choose to go naturally. So to come up with a new structure, with a new goals, with new targets for a newsroom is very important because it gives people the sense of aim and the sense of goal, and it is very supportive and I think it's pretty healthy, and takes out some of the uncertainty, even though I understand that it's very, very hard to do for managers, and I fully appreciate that.

Caithlin: Yeah, so as much structure as humanly possible within a flexible, changing situation, regroup

Maria: Regroup, in the you know, military meaning of this, like, actually regroup, you know.

Respect for journalists in exile ↑

Caithlin: Asmaa when you mentioned something earlier, and I think it's actually worth bringing this up again, about the importance of bylines for journalists in exile. Could we talk a little bit about that?

Asmaa: Yeah, is it about giving them bylines, or is it about when they decide not to put their name in a byline? Because, yeah, I have opinions about those two things.

Caithlin: Let's talk about both.

Asmaa: So let's start with the first one. For two years, I was barely given any byline, and for many reasons that they cited at the time, and I went on later to realise that these were not really legitimate reasons. And I think some of it is the remnant of that culture, the older culture of journalism that you are a star and you're working on your own and you don't want to share the credit. And I'm very happy to see that that is changing now. But also I would say that I know a lot of local journalists who are still struggling with this, and even though I was not working locally from Syria. And throughout the most of my career, I was

Caithlin: …minimised and othered, yes

Asmaa: Yes and yeah, I've I was lucky later to work with people who did give me the credit that I deserve. And I think just working for those first two years in journalism and really seeing how it could be if I don't advocate for myself and if I don't work with the right people who are willing to appreciate my contribution and see me as an equal. Yeah, like that. I know a lot of journalists, local journalists, who do amazing work and are still not given the credit that they deserve.

And I want to say when we're when I'm talking about, I know we're talking about exiled journalists, but I do want to say that my I wouldn't be able to do like, a tenth of what I'm doing now, if it was in for the actual local journalists on the ground in Syria who actually have no, um, opportunity to ever get the credit that they deserve, because they all use pseudonyms, and they all want to remain anonymous for their own safety. And without them, I would, I wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't be able to do the work that I'm doing. And I do want to say that there were times when I had to give up having my byline on a story, because it would have put people or their family in Syria in danger, or like my sources, because the government would have been able to trace them back to me, or like my bylines to them, and they would be able to make the connection if they see my name on a story that they were cited in even if they were not named. I think that the issue of bylines is a big one.

Caithlin: So I think I would just summarise by saying, be aware of how crucial a byline may be to the career of someone in exile, but be equally aware of how much of a security risk it may be, and be willing to have a conversation with each and every story about how that person is credited. Is that what you're asking?

Asmaa: Yes, and I want to say that if someone is not willing to give you the credit and they're not willing to fight for you in front of the editors, then maybe you want to reconsider working with them, because I think it means a lot when someone shows you that respect that you deserve. And if you're if you're doing the hard work, the unthankful work of going and reporting and doing the heavy lifting, then I think the least that you deserve is your colleagues’ respect.

Caithlin: Well, I think we should leave it there and get on a plane to Riga and go and take a walk by the seaside now, but thank you so much for listening to this special episode. Thank you Asmaa and thank you Masha, for sharing so openly with us today.